Burnout w/ Ian Landsman
00:00:06.73
Chris Morrell
All right, welcome back to Over-Engineered, the podcast where we ask the question, what's the absolute best way to do things we already have a perfectly acceptable solution for. ah Today, we're not exactly over-engineering, but I have, ah I hope, a really interesting conversation coming up. So we've got Ian Landsman back on. Welcome back, Ian.
00:00:29.39
Ian Landsman
Thank you. Good to be back.
00:00:31.51
Chris Morrell
and I think the reason that I reached out to you again about, about this topic is this is something I've been thinking about for a while. And it seems to me like you have been, uh, circling around the same thing around sort of broadly the idea of burnout, but also just like, how do you sit, stay, um, like invigorated and interested in working on something when that you've been working on for and literally decades.
00:01:05.61
Ian Landsman
Right.
00:01:05.89
Chris Morrell
um And you know what's you know how how do we how do we sort of survive that or you know find ways to rejuvenate? ah That was sort of the starting point. And then I think the subtopic that's just been very, yeah
00:01:27.02
Chris Morrell
you know, related, but just has been very topical is just this question of how does stuff like Twitter play into that? Um, I, you know, I know we've been talking a little bit on, on Twitter or, uh, online about that topic and I have a few thoughts there. So that's, that's kind of where, where I'm starting from. Does that, uh, ring true to you?
00:01:49.15
Ian Landsman
Yeah, we could definitely cover those. I don't know if I'm an expert in the burnout space, but I've definitely had my share of it on various degrees, I would say, so ah could share some, some takeaways, I guess, and, and knowledge there. And then, ah yeah, I mean, social media, who knows what we're going to do with that. We can, we can hash that out too, but I don't know if there's any good, good solutions there either, but.
00:02:15.75
Chris Morrell
we'll We'll solve the social media problem today.
00:02:18.12
Ian Landsman
Yeah, maybe, maybe we're going to start a new business right here on air with the with the solution.
00:02:22.66
Chris Morrell
I love it. Well, I guess I was more asking, you know, it sounds it sounded to me like from some of the things that you were talking about on mostly technical and have said online, um, a little bit around the, um, you know the the push to to try to do a rewrite and then walk away from that, which i you know I think many people can relate to that experience.
00:02:46.90
Ian Landsman
no
00:02:47.03
Chris Morrell
But it's like, yeah, sometimes we take that stuff on just to like find some new energy for a thing. And so it seems to me like ah this is something that you seem to be kind of trying to figure out for yourself.
00:02:54.54
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
00:03:00.88
Chris Morrell
Do you feel like but do you feel like um You're like in a phase of burnout or do you feel like that's not really true for you?
00:03:09.96
Ian Landsman
um I think I am a little bit right now. I think anytime you come off of like a big project that you were working hard on and then it doesn't work out for whatever reason, whether you stop it or whatever, you're kind of getting a little lull after that. So I would say, ah bit I definitely am recovering from that, I think. um But yeah, it's interesting thing around that because it's like part of it is when you work on something a long time, although I think this even applies. It doesn't have to be 20 years, like I've worked on HelpSpot, but you know, even a few years.
00:03:43.93
Ian Landsman
especially as developers, a lot of us got into this to be creative is how I look at it. um And like writing code, I find to be very creative. And then you get to a place with a product where, you know, you're doing bug fixes or even when you're doing features that customers are asking for, they're not necessarily the features you would want to build if you could just build anything you wanted to build. And so you do have those like ebbs and flows there. And I've tried different ways to deal with that. um And I don't know if any have been super effective. I've definitely done side projects and side activities and some of that helps.
00:04:21.53
Ian Landsman
um
00:04:24.58
Ian Landsman
But I don't know. I think what I'm kind of coming around, this is my current thinking on it, is more like a stoic sort of attitude about it and just being more acceptance oriented. It's like, and finding other outlets like this is for the last like 10 years or so I've been really into poker and that's been sort of a creative competitive outlet for when maybe the main product was just chugging along and stuff's happening and it's fine but there wasn't necessarily anything big and new to build or things like that it's like okay well poker could be like this outlet and hobby and
00:05:04.29
Ian Landsman
nice upside of like physically getting me away from a computer uh for the most part it'll now like everything's on your phone so it's only partially successful at that but it's some still somewhat successful you're physically sitting next to the other humans um so yeah i've been kind of getting more into that mindset and then also just like because there's just other things going on where kids are getting older and all that stuff and it's like well i could be spending a lot of time and like running the business and doing all the stuff that needs. And then also thinking about other things or tinkering with other code, other places. and But then that starts to eat into all the other time you need. And it's like, eh, maybe that's just all misguided. So that's kind of where I'm at currently. ah
00:05:44.96
Chris Morrell
Yeah, I mean, I can relate to a lot of that. Um, I think, I think it really is true that when you have, you know, a product that gets, uh, stable enough to have paying customers for decades, right? you You start to work on different things. Um, we talked about it this a little bit in the episode on project management, um, But, you know, definitely at internet we have a much larger focus on, you know, fixing things that are like paper cuts for staff ah over building new features because that's like, that's where the the biggest ah ROI is, is like, there's people working here who have to deal with our product every day and like, you know, the stuff that they come across and the stuff that our members come across
00:06:33.97
Ian Landsman
Right.
00:06:39.01
Chris Morrell
ah are huge have a huge impact on everyone, whereas you know new features are fun to work on. But um you have to change that balance, I think. um And it does. it you know Fixing bugs is not as fun as creating new things from scratch, right usually.
00:06:56.32
Ian Landsman
Right. Usually. Yeah.
00:06:58.96
Chris Morrell
yeah um And I also agree, I mean, when, when Joe Tenenbaum was on, we were talking about, he, he kept on saying that he was really surprised that folks were, um, you know, as responsive to his CLI experiments.
00:07:16.49
Ian Landsman
No.
00:07:16.84
Chris Morrell
Um, and I, you know, I had said at the time, like, it doesn't surprise me at all because I think programming is art more than anything else. Right. Um, and. What is art, if not something to like, you know, explore the boundaries of and, and enjoy experimentation and like all the things that he was doing with those, even though they weren't practical, like that's why a lot of us are in it. Right.
00:07:46.55
Ian Landsman
And even the other side, it's the person viewing the art like and appreciating it.
00:07:46.60
Chris Morrell
So.
00:07:50.86
Ian Landsman
like I never installed any of his stuff. like I just watched him do it online on Twitter or whatever.
00:07:54.59
Chris Morrell
Mm-hmm.
00:07:55.45
Ian Landsman
And it's like, oh, that's amazing and cool. And I'm like talking about it. And even though I don't have a need for it, it's like just seeing him push the boundaries of that was entertaining and and appreciate yeah I appreciated it.
00:08:06.62
Chris Morrell
Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious for you. So something that that I've done over the last two years, I would say there was a, there was a period of time when, you know, I think when you are in a more, um, you know, executive management type role. um But our developer, it's, you know, it's easy for the, the, the management side of things to take over.
00:08:37.49
Chris Morrell
um
00:08:37.76
Ian Landsman
So.
00:08:38.94
Chris Morrell
and I felt like that was really impacting my just quality of life. ah And so over the last couple of years, I've made a pretty ah concerted effort to sort of shift things around so that I can you know make time for programming because that's like that's the thing that I'm probably most fulfilled by. i I think that if I weren't doing any of the business stuff, um I would miss it. um i don't It's not that I'm not.
00:09:09.53
Ian Landsman
No.
00:09:11.61
Chris Morrell
that I don't enjoy that, but um you know especially some of the more just day-to-day operation stuff. I am glad to offload that to other folks and and make more space for for programming. um have Is that something that you've had to like be intentional about or has it just kind of worked out for you in that way?
00:09:32.44
Ian Landsman
I don't think I've been as intentional about these things as I would have liked to have been probably but I do think there is for me I have quite an ebb and flow between those two where like I'll be, there'll be phases where I'm like, I love just managing. I love that stuff's happening and I don't have to be the one to do it. And my brain can be clear to do other things. And then I'll get a little more in the zone of like, man, but I miss doing the things myself with my own hands. And so let me like go do that. Um, but then I often then come around in that scenario of like, uh, but like the reality is.
00:10:13.00
Ian Landsman
Like there's just the government sends me a stupid format i have to fill out and that takes two hours. And then, you know, something with the payroll processor thing. And then this other thing and the taxes and the accountant and like, you're constantly distracted when you're you know the founder or you know manager in some way. And so like that then takes away from your time doing the programming anyway. like There's not a lot of scenarios where I just sit and program for eight hours and I'm uninterrupted and can be totally in the zone.
00:10:43.39
Ian Landsman
And so so then the reality of that much programming is not as, the dream of it is maybe more than the reality of it um over time.
00:10:50.64
Chris Morrell
you
00:10:53.94
Ian Landsman
and so
00:10:56.78
Ian Landsman
So I tend to have these like seasons, uh, where there, there are a season of coding and I'll code for a couple of years or 18 months or whatever. And then I'll be like, okay, like, like we're kind of getting to that now where I'm sort of like, I do have some. projects that I'll be coding probably most likely here soon, but they're a little tighter. They're not like rebuild help spot, which was my last thing I worked on, which was too big. Like I shouldn't have been the one, like not that I was going to be the only one working on it, but I was going to lay that kind of foundation and just like.
00:11:28.74
Ian Landsman
Bad idea from the start. um So I think it is, I'm trying to be more intentional about like, yes, there's certain aspects I can do. There's certain aspects, like one of the things we're doing once we decided not to rebuild HubSpot was like modernize certain internal components.
00:11:43.93
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
00:11:44.20
Ian Landsman
Like that's been fun. um I've been offered that now for a little while, cause I'm like working on the website and doing other stuff. So I get distracted from it, but it's also not. Ultra time critical. So it's fine. I'll be back on it in a couple of weeks, but that's like, yeah, I know help spot internals really well. I can like go in there and hash and burn faster than probably anybody else could, uh, who would have to like learn a lot of that stuff. So. but it's also like a pretty narrow scope. It's like, I'm gonna take this chunk and do it in a modern Laravel way, um but it's not all the way to like rebuilding the whole thing or building something new. So it's ah it's a more of a bite-sized chunk and trying to be more intentional about that aspect of it. um So we'll we'll see, that's where I'm at now with it. And I feel like I like it.
00:12:33.93
Chris Morrell
i I have recently come to a new sort of ah mental model for things like this rebuild, where I used to beat myself up all the time for you know starting things and not finishing them.
00:12:48.12
Ian Landsman
yeah
00:12:48.49
Chris Morrell
um And, you know, like I, I have this image in my head that I've been trying to like get, get ah down as like a real graphic that I could share because I i think it would help, but like kind of had this idea of like ah starting at a finish line that is linear somehow.
00:13:00.57
Ian Landsman
yeah
00:13:05.41
Chris Morrell
Right. When, when I look back at my experience, like.
00:13:09.43
Ian Landsman
No.
00:13:10.62
Chris Morrell
I think of it as much more like a upward spiral where you know like sometimes i'll I'll make a push towards something and then walk away from it and then come back to it and and bring it further along and eventually finish it.
00:13:13.47
Ian Landsman
All right.
00:13:28.21
Chris Morrell
And other times I'll make a push toward something and walk away from it forever. But like everything that I learned during that, you know, informs something that I do later, right?
00:13:37.52
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
00:13:39.18
Chris Morrell
So I can't imagine that the work that you're doing now, you know, modernizing the internals, isn't heavily informed by the time that you spent. Um, experimenting with a rewrite and I, and I would almost guarantee that it's better for it in pretty meaningful ways. You know what I mean? Like, I think thinking about these like starts and stops is just like, if you didn't ship something, it's a failure. Uh, really, you know, is not the whole picture.
00:14:13.38
Ian Landsman
Yeah, this is i mean I definitely tell myself that, what you're saying. so um And I think it's true that I definitely learned a bunch of stuff. um
00:14:25.42
Ian Landsman
It's kind of interesting because you know ultimately it comes down to the software is such a small but part of most of these things. like
00:14:35.52
Chris Morrell
Mm hmm.
00:14:36.22
Ian Landsman
um Like the technology is there to rebuild it better and faster and stronger than it was originally built. But then like, as you get into it, it's like, yeah, but but there's all the business factors of like, up heaving all the existing customers. And then like, if you're going to do a radical change, you're going to lose customers probably on some level. I mean, we had some ideas to like soften the blow of that a bit, um, by letting them stay on the old platform and different things, but still like, Once you open that door, people can think about, oh, should I move to the new help spot? Like that's why I should also think about, should I move to the Zendesk or to whoever else? Right. So.
00:15:17.44
Chris Morrell
Yep. See Google Analytics.
00:15:20.78
Ian Landsman
Right, exactly. All that kind of stuff. So once you open that door, people are going to reconsider their options. So that's always a stressful point. um Even for the people who aren't considering that, like, great, we just want a new thing. You know, there's ah there's a whole application that's gigantic that would have to be built to, like, convert people. um There's other models you could take. Well, OK, like, let's not mess with the data layer. and kind of just build a new version that pretty much uses the existing data model in terms of like the actual database columns and things that are in the database but that then super limits you like on the new things you would want to do because a lot of the new stuff would be let's restructure it and make it better and now you're not really restructuring it like yeah now I'm accessing it in a nicer way on the Laravel side which is nice but
00:16:04.92
Chris Morrell
yeah
00:16:08.52
Ian Landsman
isn't necessarily solving some of the deeper issues that I might wanna fix with ah how things are modeled out and stuff. So yeah, so it ah ends up being complicated and then... I do think there's like, uh, I don't know if you feel this. I definitely feel like an age factor where like, as I get older, just my ability to want to handle so many different complicated things of dubious outcomes all simultaneously is like very much diminished. Like I just don't have the energy for that. And it's like.
00:16:42.62
Ian Landsman
Is the upside of rocking the boat worth the downside of like the stress and aggravation and all that stuff, like the, you know, so it's like, eh, I don't know.
00:16:49.01
Chris Morrell
Oh, for sure.
00:16:52.68
Ian Landsman
Um, and there's just a lot of other stuff we have to do. There's like all this AI stuff, which is very big in customer service right now, at least it's kind of a hot topic and. Like we could be shipping AI features, which is kind of the stuff we're working on now, or we could be rebuilding the underpinnings so they're better. And obviously those things are related and you're like, well, if it was structured differently, that would be nicer for other features. But then in the reality, of course, no customer cares about that. They just want you to ship new features.
00:17:19.38
Chris Morrell
Right.
00:17:21.31
Ian Landsman
So, okay. Like, so taking a year to do all that just puts you a year behind on the features they actually want. um So yeah, so there's all those trade-offs in there and all that is stressful and on the topic of the podcast, like you get into the burnout zone of that's a lot of stuff to think about and juggle and then you're not sure why you're doing it to begin and with to some degree.
00:17:27.96
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
00:17:40.58
Chris Morrell
Yeah. i I actually wanna jump onto a tangent for one second, which is, do you ah do you have customers that are asking for AI features?
00:17:44.81
Ian Landsman
Sure.
00:17:50.27
Chris Morrell
Is that like, that people are asking for them?
00:17:50.48
Ian Landsman
ah Yeah, we go. Yeah.
00:17:53.29
Chris Morrell
I can see it in that space. Cause I've just been, I don't know, I was just talking with my wife about this. I have yet to meet like a non-technical person who is excited about an AI feature in anything that they've used.
00:18:10.27
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
00:18:10.39
Chris Morrell
you know And I just keep on wondering, is this something that anybody wants? you know like As programmers, we're so excited to like implement this cool new thing and it seems so exciting and the promise of it is so amazing.
00:18:15.29
Ian Landsman
Well, I think if we got.
00:18:20.02
Ian Landsman
Right. Yep.
00:18:23.08
Chris Morrell
But like every time I see an AI feature in a product that I actually use, I'm like, Oh, this is getting in the way of me actually doing the thing I want to do, you know?
00:18:33.21
Ian Landsman
Yeah. So it's a complicated question that I might be a little long winded in the answer here, but for your audience, I think I can get down into some of the nitty gritty here a little bit.
00:18:43.07
Chris Morrell
Go for it.
00:18:44.71
Ian Landsman
um There's a lot of layers there, right? So there's like.
00:18:50.40
Ian Landsman
For normal people, they've actually already been using a ton of like big umbrella AI stuff. Like your Spotify suggestions is like machine, what you would have called machine learning 18 months ago is like under the AI banner now, right?
00:18:58.10
Chris Morrell
Sure.
00:19:04.29
Ian Landsman
But like your Netflix queue, like all this stuff that people like, it shows them A lot of people in this podcast maybe don't like it because we're like devs and we're like, oh, we hate when we go to Netflix that like just shoves a bunch of shit. It doesn't like finish the, the series I'm halfway through. It doesn't appear at the top. Instead I get whatever new thing they're pushing, right? Or whatever, but whatever Netflix has the data that says otherwise that people like when they do that and shove a bunch of new shows in front of them instead.
00:19:25.55
Chris Morrell
Yep.
00:19:32.31
Ian Landsman
And so. That's what they do. And they don't just write like a bunch of if statements, right? Like they have a bunch of machine learning models that algorithmically figure this stuff out and give things to you personalized for you to some degree.
00:19:46.58
Chris Morrell
Yeah. I will say when I, when I say AI, I mean specifically language model stuff, right?
00:19:51.20
Ian Landsman
Like the LLMs.
00:19:52.02
Chris Morrell
Like that's the piece.
00:19:52.12
Ian Landsman
Yeah. But so, right. So, so I'm getting, I'm getting there. So like, so that is like AI stuff normies use every day and have used for a while now.
00:19:55.85
Chris Morrell
Okay. All right. Yep.
00:20:00.98
Ian Landsman
Right. So that's kind of where I'm going with the LM is like, I think there will be things that they just use and they don't think about it. Like this is AI. It's just going to be stuff happens and it's cool. Like I think the best example of that so far has kind of been, I really, there's some beefs I have with the Apple keynote, but I think the way they're going about the Apple intelligence stuff is kind of along these lines. It's like.
00:20:22.83
Chris Morrell
Yeah, for sure.
00:20:23.23
Ian Landsman
Let me just fix that writing for you. It's right here. Let me just oh, let me pull in your contact information and this map you did and whatever and realize that you're going over there and like give you a couple hints about that or have it preset up in your ah You know when you open your phone it's like all ready to go because it knows you're gonna go somewhere and where you're going and whatever so like I Think the core day in day out use is gonna be much more that kind of thing um And then it won't necessarily all be like some of that stuff still going to be like more traditional machine learning.
00:20:55.41
Ian Landsman
Some of that will be LLMs. I think where our circles, I think it's like the LLMs were like such a cool thing of like, Oh, I just shove any text I want and it gives me text back. And so I could quickly add this to anything because it's like, yeah, let's just shove some text in it and it gives us text back.
00:21:08.33
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
00:21:10.69
Ian Landsman
And so it takes longer to figure out. other types of things to build with that technology, then just fix my writing type of things, which everybody added quickly. We added that quickly. Like, yeah, whatever. If you're an agent and you want to like have chat GPT clean up your writing, great. Like it does that now in help spot. But so there's that there's also like, this is probably going to become the API, I would say for most medium sized businesses and below to do
00:21:29.61
Chris Morrell
Mmhmm.
00:21:41.53
Ian Landsman
what in the past big companies just did with training machine learning models custom, that this will be our level of ability. Like we're probably can't financially build a custom model. So we are going to use the LLM and leverage its abilities to do equivalent features that are still seamless. Like this is kind of stuff we are more working on is like, how can we route a ticket to the right place or category or agent? um
00:22:12.78
Ian Landsman
So it's not like you're going to see any writing. You're not going to know that like LLM was involved. It's just a thing that happens.
00:22:20.96
Chris Morrell
Sure.
00:22:21.09
Ian Landsman
inside the tool, right? And so, but those things will take more time than just, hey, I see that my app has a text area and now I can like do stuff in that text area. Like that's a different type of thing. um But yeah, I do think like in day-to-day use, but I don't know. Like I think it would probably give me a thing to use more at work. um Is it gonna be like in your home as much as people might think it will be now? Maybe not. Um, some areas lend themselves to it more than others, like customer service. People at least see the potential of the idea, right? Like I have a hundred agents, you know, in certain companies, those hundred agents.
00:23:01.49
Ian Landsman
Like eight, it's the 80 20 it's like 80% of their support is five questions. It's the same five questions over and over.
00:23:06.56
Chris Morrell
Yeah, sure.
00:23:08.46
Ian Landsman
Right. So can you reduce your head count by answering those five questions, even just those five in a really good automated way?
00:23:09.38
Chris Morrell
Yep.
00:23:18.26
Ian Landsman
Probably. Right. And so that's the, there's an impetus there. That's not actually the kind of customer help spot has very many of, um, For the most part, it's a little bit more complicated scenarios most helps about customers. So I think there is still a chance to reduce people's tickets by some percentage. But I don't think it's going to be like when you see like there was a big article months back about Klarna, who's one of these like, you know, pay over time type services and they whatever like reduce their agents by 70%.
00:23:52.74
Ian Landsman
But they're also the kind of service that's like, they probably have five questions. Like how do I, you know, return an item? How do I pay this off?
00:23:58.52
Chris Morrell
Right.
00:24:00.00
Ian Landsman
How do I get a loan to buy an item? ah You know, whatever. There's like literally a handful of things. Cause all they do is kind of this one service and it's fairly straightforward. Like how do I pay my bill? They're going to get a lot of those really consumery kind of straightforward questions, but a lot of places aren't like that.
00:24:16.80
Chris Morrell
I still. I still though wonder like. Is the customer experience at like at Klarna good now?
00:24:27.48
Ian Landsman
Right.
00:24:27.90
Chris Morrell
I betcha it's not, you know?
00:24:30.15
Ian Landsman
Oh, yeah. So I think that's of a whole other fascinating area. um Again, if you deal with like somewhat smaller companies like we do, there tends to be a little more, let's say, care about customer service, right?
00:24:42.36
Chris Morrell
Yeah, for sure.
00:24:44.07
Ian Landsman
Or we're trying to create, use that as a differentiator, use that as you a valuable contact point. But there are not all companies view it that way, right? Like if I was hiring bad agents and I was training them poorly and I was throwing them on them into the meat grinder to answer my five questions that I have to answer over and over, I think the bar there is pretty low on is the AI going to do a better job, like, or at least an equivalent job, right?
00:25:07.02
Chris Morrell
Right. Sure.
00:25:09.38
Ian Landsman
Whereas like, yes, if I have a highly trained agent who really knows my products well and the questions are more complex, then the AI is probably going to do a pretty bad job there. but And I think for the foreseeable future, like I don't think the AI kind of feel like what we have with LLMs is what we're getting. Um, and they'll get better at writing stuff and maybe they'll get better at categorizing and tasks.
00:25:26.30
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
00:25:31.87
Ian Landsman
But I don't think it's, I think all this like AGI or whatever is kind of, yeah, I just think that there, it still only knows what you fed into it and you can only feed so much into it and
00:25:37.30
Chris Morrell
There's, there's no intelligence is the problem. Right.
00:25:45.57
Chris Morrell
And doesn't even, I mean, I, I was talking with ah Daniel Culver and a while ago and he was just like talking about how amazing it was to be able to just like throw a document into chat GPT and then like have an audio conversation with chat GPT about the document.
00:25:46.66
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
00:26:04.89
Chris Morrell
So I tried it. I was going to a board meeting for the kids' school. um And it's a it's a Walter school, which, if you don't know, is typically fairly conservative about technology. There's no there's no technology in the classrooms or anything like that.
00:26:21.37
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
00:26:22.56
Chris Morrell
and i um I just asked for a brief summary of this document and it starts going on and on about introducing screens and the projectors into each classroom and giving everyone tablets. And I went so far as to say, can you quote the exact paragraph in the document that says this? And it happily just gives me back you know, ah it gives me back a quote, you know, with quotation marks around it.
00:26:48.29
Ian Landsman
Something. Right.
00:26:51.95
Chris Morrell
um And I, you know, I went in because I was like, I am fairly certain that this set of recommendations is not actually in this document, and you know, completely fabricated.
00:27:00.74
Ian Landsman
Yep.
00:27:03.20
Chris Morrell
um So all the, I don't know, I just, I have so much, I just, I think that the problem with LLMs is,
00:27:03.54
Ian Landsman
That's crazy.
00:27:13.62
Chris Morrell
They show so much promise, but I don't think the technology can ever, I don't think the technology has the capacity to reach what we imagine it will someday be. I think we need totally different solutions to these problems to get there. And so everyone's sort of building on this premise that someday it's going to get to this place that we see the potential for. And I just don't buy that it will, but yeah.
00:27:38.63
Ian Landsman
That's definitely the market move, right, of people trying to raise money. It's like, let me sell you the dream of everything's automated, and yeah.
00:27:44.49
Chris Morrell
Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's so, I mean, so cool, right? It's, it's very cool to say.
00:27:48.50
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
00:27:49.91
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
00:27:50.90
Ian Landsman
Yeah, I mean, this is why we haven't like gotten too far into it with HelpSpot yet, and that what we're doing is safer stuff to start, let's put it that way, of like, if it miscategorizes something, you'll be annoyed, but it's not like it told your customer a completely wrong answer.
00:27:51.17
Chris Morrell
All right. This is.
00:27:59.40
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
00:28:06.17
Ian Landsman
um
00:28:06.63
Chris Morrell
Right.
00:28:08.27
Ian Landsman
Because yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, there are, again, this is where it comes into different type of companies. Like, ah let's say I'm just making this up, don't sue me, but like at Klarna, let's say like 10% of the first time the agent answered, they got it wrong. Like human agents.
00:28:22.29
Chris Morrell
Mm-hmm Right
00:28:22.56
Ian Landsman
Well, like if that if you're willing to accept that level of wrongness, then the AI is probably gonna be able to get you in the ballpark and it's not a big trade-off. But like a lot of companies are like, no, I don't want, even like a few percent is unacceptable. Well, and that, like we know the LM is probably not, it's going to have a hard time getting that accurate a lot of times, or it's going to insert something subtly incorrect and make the customer mad. And what's the, yes, you're saving money on agents, but what's the cost to you when customers get mad and leave because they had bad experiences with support. So.
00:28:58.42
Ian Landsman
There's a lot of trade-offs there. How wrong the LOM can be and what your acceptability for that is, is very important factors in that equation.
00:29:07.01
Chris Morrell
Yeah, for sure. All right. We'll have to, we'll we'll have to do a ah third part, uh, episode three on, on LLMs.
00:29:13.62
Ian Landsman
Oh boy. AI.
00:29:16.22
Chris Morrell
Cause I, I want to get back onto topic.
00:29:18.78
Ian Landsman
All right.
00:29:19.08
Chris Morrell
Um, but I, you know, I could talk about this for a long time.
00:29:22.68
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
00:29:23.43
Chris Morrell
um what Something that i I had been thinking about, um or I think another part of this sort of work that I've done over the last few years um to get back into this place of being a programmer. um, is focusing a lot more on open source. And I'm curious, I, you know, I feel like you are so engaged with the open source community in your life that, you know, the, the godfather of Laravel, all that, right?
00:29:42.45
Ian Landsman
Hmm.
00:29:51.51
Ian Landsman
Right.
00:29:53.19
Chris Morrell
Do you, do you do much open source work yourself? I i don't really know.
00:29:57.37
Ian Landsman
Now, I have a few things out there from forever ago, but not, um, not much at all. And. I guess I've always approached it more as like my, what I can give there is something different, uh, than code like that. The people doing the code are better coders. I mean, like tailors are 10 times better coder than I am. And like my package is not going to be that additive compared to what other people can do. Um, so, but maybe I can be impactful in other ways, help with the community with a Lara con or Lara jobs, or like, I was taking on more of the business end. Like how can we.
00:30:33.62
Ian Landsman
make this sustainable has been more my interest than the actual, let me code it up and ship some code.
00:30:36.96
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
00:30:42.30
Ian Landsman
um So yeah, that's kind of been my, my take on it.
00:30:46.64
Chris Morrell
For me, I mean, I don't, you know, I don't know if I am contributing back or not, but I do find that, um, Giving myself space to work on open source is a way to sort of counteract what we were talking about earlier, where, you know, on a, on a more mature project, you're working on, you know, more just bug fixes and, and small improvements where, you know, if you are just working on an open source package, you can kind of.
00:31:09.68
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
00:31:20.88
Chris Morrell
find a problem and try to solve it. ah And even if it's only just to have done it, you know, um and not not particularly useful for other people.
00:31:23.41
Ian Landsman
Right.
00:31:30.01
Ian Landsman
Hmm.
00:31:32.09
Chris Morrell
um I do find that that's like a really useful creative outlet for myself is just like, Yeah, sometimes you know we my ah other dev team members will joke that sometimes I just like disappear for two days and come back with like a ah new open source package that I wrote.
00:31:47.22
Ian Landsman
Right.
00:31:50.71
Ian Landsman
Yep.
00:31:51.39
Chris Morrell
And um you know usually it's something that's useful for us and and I think is is you know good for the world, I guess. But a lot of it is just I need to get away and do something creative for a little while.
00:32:00.03
Ian Landsman
Yep.
00:32:05.99
Chris Morrell
um So that, I don't know, that feels like it's helpful.
00:32:11.84
Ian Landsman
I think for me, I guess the sort of
00:32:11.92
Chris Morrell
um
00:32:18.58
Ian Landsman
tricky part with that kind of thing is like, I've definitely done that myself, not with open source, ah but with, well, I'll have another side project in addition to obviously working on help swap.
00:32:29.38
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
00:32:30.12
Ian Landsman
I do think from a burnout perspective, I don't love it. And this will be different for different people. Some people are rejuvenated by that, but I do think like more, it's like just more screen time. It's like more of the same kind of thing. And it's not getting me away from it. So I guess that's where I find it's, not restorative and and this might be but specific to me but I also I have a very hard time this is part of the open source issue too so that was a good question because I tend to come at, even though I'd like the like creativity and art of software, I also tend to just think about it always from a business perspective.
00:33:08.64
Ian Landsman
So like if I'm going to be motivated to write something, a new piece of code, like it's going to be like, how do I make a business out of this?
00:33:08.62
Chris Morrell
Mmhmm.
00:33:15.18
Ian Landsman
How do I sell this? like That's going to be my angle with it. So even my like side hobby thing will be like, how do I do something businessy with this? and so That also then brings on for me, it's like not just the code and it's fun coding on it, but it's like, well, I have to like get a domain and I have to like, how are we going to sell it? And what's the market? And like, I started thinking about business-y stuff that all obviously then weighs down on top of the existing actual business that actually pays for everything. So ah yeah, for me, it's never been like restorative in that, like I want it to be, but it tends to not be because of those kind of
00:33:55.72
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
00:33:55.81
Ian Landsman
It becomes and a second business, even though it's not selling anything, it's just but it's in my mind, it's like a second business. And so, yeah, it's just more weight.
00:34:03.95
Chris Morrell
I get that. Yeah. I think, I think, um, for me, I do think about it from a business perspective, but I think about it more, uh, for us, the biggest challenge around the software side of things is hiring. Right. Like finding good people who are like a good fit for the team, who are going to stay around for a long time.
00:34:23.79
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
00:34:31.63
Chris Morrell
Um, and who are good developers is hard, right? I think it's hard for everybody.
00:34:35.76
Ian Landsman
Yep.
00:34:36.79
Chris Morrell
Uh, and I know that, that Adam has been talking about this recently and Taylor has been talking about it recently. Uh, just the, you know, the. inundation of terrible applications is so hard.
00:34:48.69
Ian Landsman
Yes. Yep.
00:34:50.60
Chris Morrell
um And I think that for me, i I've put a lot of my tension into open source with this mindset of I wanna get like good code that's associated with me and the organization out there um so that when people, ah like when we're so when we are hiring, there's a better chance that someone who I would like to hire has maybe interacted with it a little bit or used something that we've put out there.
00:35:26.42
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
00:35:29.78
Chris Morrell
um And that's been that's been really helpful. ah So far as theoretically, you know, it's one for one at least most recently.
00:35:37.05
Ian Landsman
Right.
00:35:41.37
Chris Morrell
um
00:35:41.60
Ian Landsman
Yeah, I think all that stuff sort of as marketing, if you will, um even though what you're marketing is your organization and how it works internally, right, is all good stuff. And I think. For me, it's I've done the same thing, but it's just from a different angle, right? It's like people know me now because I ran the online conference and the job board and whatever.
00:35:57.80
Chris Morrell
Right. Yeah.
00:36:02.59
Ian Landsman
um So that's sort of my angle with that. It's like just getting in front of people to know that we're an organization that uses this tool that they like and that is in the community and you're going to be maybe a little more well known if you work here than if you work somewhere else where you're kind of in the board down in the basement somewhere and you're responsible for your little section of some giant Laravel app.
00:36:22.50
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
00:36:25.39
Ian Landsman
So um yeah, so I think that's a really good way to get, I mean, there's so many advantages. We have to go into every advantage of doing open source, but that's definitely an advantage is getting a name out there in one way or the other and getting people to recognize you. It's definitely how I hired people.
00:36:42.54
Chris Morrell
Yeah. So. I want to go all the way back, I think that. um Sort of the place where this, this, the idea of this conversation first started for me actually is I can't remember when it was.
00:36:57.94
Ian Landsman
Mm.
00:37:00.32
Chris Morrell
I think I assume it must've been on mostly technical. You said something about ah a friend or somewhere you had read that like ah in an ideal world founders would be able to take a year off every five years or something like that.
00:37:16.54
Ian Landsman
Yeah, I knew, uh, somebody had once let me know about this founder and it was like some physical world company. This is years ago where the guy takes every fifth year completely off.
00:37:29.88
Chris Morrell
um And I remember just hearing that and just thinking, oh my God, can you imagine? and Just like, I just, i you know, it just gave me this like very deep feeling of like, what ah what would it be like to come back after that year?
00:37:37.51
Ian Landsman
Yeah, that'd be pretty awesome.
00:37:50.08
Chris Morrell
Because, you know, you'd be hungry to work again, right?
00:37:50.25
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
00:37:53.33
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
00:37:53.58
Chris Morrell
Because I bet you by the end of it, you're kind of sick of not working.
00:37:55.83
Ian Landsman
Yep.
00:37:58.75
Chris Morrell
But also, like I don't know about you, but I definitely find you know after having kids, as I'm getting older, paying attention to my physical health is harder for me.
00:37:58.87
Ian Landsman
Nope.
00:38:10.09
Ian Landsman
Hmm.
00:38:12.79
Chris Morrell
um And just, just making time for it. I mean, sort of what you were talking about in the very beginning, I don't buy this whole, the whole like work-life balance dichotomy. Cause I don't, I don't think that that's quite nuanced enough. Um, but there's a. There's this sort of model that I heard about through CGP Grey, which is the four light bulbs, which is essentially like you have you know you have your work, you have your relationships, you have your health, um and you have your family, right?
00:38:36.66
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
00:38:50.69
Chris Morrell
These are the four ah big categories. And you've got four light bulbs and 100 watts. And like you can't light all four light bulbs to full brightness.
00:39:05.12
Ian Landsman
yeah
00:39:05.17
Chris Morrell
Like there's just not enough energy to do that.
00:39:07.47
Ian Landsman
No.
00:39:07.87
Chris Morrell
So you have to be like thoughtful or, you know, sort of realistic about what you're putting energy into. And I think, you know, I know when I there, there have been times in my life when that's been really helpful to kind of say, you know what, I'm going to really intentionally like just not focus on my like physical health or my like friendships for a while because like we just had a baby and I just like got sort of a, took on a bigger role at work, like work and family just need a hundred percent right now.
00:39:44.27
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
00:39:47.48
Ian Landsman
Yep.
00:39:47.75
Chris Morrell
Um, and other times where that, that balance has been different, but I, I definitely find myself thinking like, I can't make the space for some of this health stuff. And I imagine that you know a couple weeks of not working and not really doing other stuff would start to open up space to be like, oh, maybe I can like make it to to the yoga studio or start taking classes or you know whatever it might be.
00:40:13.11
Ian Landsman
Right.
00:40:19.26
Chris Morrell
like That's a big element of it for for me as well.
00:40:19.94
Ian Landsman
Yeah,
00:40:24.67
Chris Morrell
um
00:40:25.34
Ian Landsman
yeah I mean these jobs, that i mean I always thought that was amazing and I've never been able to get to that spot, which is definitely a regret. I would have liked to have maybe bound a way to make that work, but we just never got big enough to really execute that. um
00:40:39.73
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
00:40:41.09
Ian Landsman
And it is because I think it's like a nice structure for like, and obviously maybe you just do it for shorter amounts of time. I have taken big trips and things that were several months, but I never thought about it as a recurring thing. But there is something to the idea of recurring this of it. First of all, that's five years. It's like. I'm thinking long term, like I'm going to have this business in 25 years, right? Cause these are five. It's not like every other year. It's like five year chunks. Okay. And then I'm going to push harder for four years and I'm going to take a year off.
00:41:06.33
Chris Morrell
yeah
00:41:09.63
Ian Landsman
And there's like a nice element to that. I think it would definitely be restorative. Um, does would force you into some other.
00:41:20.88
Ian Landsman
I do think the problem with like a vacation in our world is that like you're gone for a week, but you're barely gone. like Things are pinging you. Things are notifying you.
00:41:28.71
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
00:41:29.55
Ian Landsman
People have questions. You're answering them, because it's not 1954 when you were on a vacation. You were really on a vacation, and there's literally no way for anybody to get a hold of you and how like amazing that must have been. um In some ways, obviously, there's downsides to not having instant communication, but there are some upsides to it as well, where you could actually be at least mostly unplugged, which is very difficult now even if you take a couple weeks off or whatever so um yeah but that even kind of gets into your other part of the topics of like
00:41:49.78
Chris Morrell
yeah
00:42:00.97
Ian Landsman
maybe when you take a two week vacation, you should just force yourself to unplug. Like you have to, you have to be more assertive about it, right? And be like, I'm going to do this and really go to the yoga studio three days a week and get, start building the habit so that even when I come back, I can continue it, for example.
00:42:07.30
Chris Morrell
Right.
00:42:17.01
Chris Morrell
Right.
00:42:17.86
Ian Landsman
Um, and like the same thing with like Twitter or social media or things like that.
00:42:18.06
Chris Morrell
Right.
00:42:21.14
Ian Landsman
Like, where do you, we have to be more, it's not going to happen for us anymore in the way it used to. You may have to be more proactive, you know,
00:42:27.08
Chris Morrell
Right. Yeah, I mean, ah but I do think that there's something about, there's a difference between a vacation and something like a sabbatical, right?
00:42:35.00
Ian Landsman
Yeah, there is.
00:42:35.46
Chris Morrell
Vacation has certain expectations, right? youre you You kind of trade work for the work of relaxing.
00:42:41.95
Ian Landsman
Right.
00:42:44.52
Chris Morrell
as or or of like you know exploring or whatever type of vacation is your you're doing but there's there's like a doing element even if that doing is like laying on the beach it's still like you kind of have an agenda right and there's there's some expectation that like oh you're going to be gone for a week and all of a sudden you'll be like rejuvenated
00:42:49.88
Ian Landsman
right
00:42:55.81
Ian Landsman
Right. Yeah.
00:43:05.86
Chris Morrell
But that's not usually my experience. I love to take a vacation, but ah I love to do it because, you know, I like to spend time with my kids by the beach and, you know, dig sand castles and all that stuff.
00:43:08.39
Ian Landsman
Right. Right.
00:43:16.57
Ian Landsman
Right. Yeah, there's planning.
00:43:19.61
Chris Morrell
Like, yeah, there's a lot of work to it, especially with kids.
00:43:20.54
Ian Landsman
There's all that stuff. There's work with it. Yeah. There's a ton of work.
00:43:24.04
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
00:43:24.29
Ian Landsman
Yes.
00:43:25.31
Chris Morrell
um Whereas.
00:43:26.17
Ian Landsman
Yeah. A sabbatical works back, working backwards from a sabbatical, you're going to change the whole structure of your business. Like how do I structure my business so that I can literally not be here? Like you're not going to structure your business in a way to support you going on a two week vacation, but you are going to structure it so that you can literally be gone a year.
00:43:39.87
Chris Morrell
Right.
00:43:42.90
Ian Landsman
Like that means very different things about what has to be in place.
00:43:45.64
Chris Morrell
Yeah. i I think about with the kids, you know, there's a lot of like, uh, what the value of being bored, that like kind of concept.
00:43:56.65
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
00:43:56.62
Chris Morrell
And in some ways I think about it in the same, same way. It's like, Yeah, I almost feel like, yeah, I need some time to be like legitimately bored.
00:44:06.38
Ian Landsman
Right.
00:44:06.38
Chris Morrell
You know, like it's, it is, it's hard.
00:44:07.06
Ian Landsman
Yeah, it's hard now.
00:44:09.96
Chris Morrell
It's funny how that is, but yeah. Well, so. ah When we were talking about this, I i texted you before and I said, ah maybe Twitter is not so bad.
00:44:21.35
Ian Landsman
Right.
00:44:23.30
Chris Morrell
And then also, ah there's this whole discourse, ah how how Twitter, you know, the Brent is leaving Twitter, there's there's a lot of conversation about Twitter. I do want to get into that for a second. My Twitter is maybe not bad take is
00:44:39.51
Ian Landsman
Mm hmm.
00:44:42.55
Chris Morrell
Certainly over the pandemic and even now, the number of relationships that I made over Twitter, right, that have turned into, you know, at the very least, you know, telegram chats or, you know, seeing people from time to time, uh, or just going to Laricon and like having people that I know and and recognize and like, I'm happy to see, um,
00:45:11.25
Ian Landsman
Well.
00:45:13.42
Chris Morrell
I think that's been immensely valuable to me. I think it was you know i think it was really valuable during the pandemic when when you know we were locked at home to have like a community of people to so kind of call on.
00:45:24.70
Ian Landsman
Right.
00:45:29.26
Chris Morrell
and you know I think that things like this podcast and and um just a bunch of things that have gotten me ah in touch with new people, you know, made new friends, ah built new social relationships, whether it, you know, whether it extends to the degree of like a friendship that that's like regular interaction, but just like, I think that there's been a lot that's been really positive there. And so,
00:46:01.24
Chris Morrell
while I get everyone's, I also am feeling all the other sides of social media. um And I think that like you know what Brent said in his post about just like that sort of compulsion to go check, see what's what's going on real quick before you do whatever's next, it's obviously not great.
00:46:21.43
Ian Landsman
Yeah. Right. ah Definitely not helping your productivity for sure.
00:46:24.44
Chris Morrell
um Yeah, but ah at the same time, You know, it's like, I don't want to walk away because I am continuing to build new, like real connections with real people via Twitter, you know?
00:46:42.88
Ian Landsman
yeah
00:46:43.72
Chris Morrell
Um, and I think part of that for me has been, I'm very, very aggressive about unfollowing or muting. Like, so I don't, you know, I don't really see any of the like, I really don't see much of the stuff that that a lot of folks are complaining about around like, you know, the SEO ah scammers or the, you know, just like the um the audience building nonsense.
00:47:05.74
Ian Landsman
Yeah. Mm.
00:47:14.94
Chris Morrell
um And maybe that means I miss out on, you know, finding new people to to engage with, but yeah, i I think that there's a lot of value, potential value there. um that I would miss. I don't know if that that resonates for you.
00:47:35.79
Ian Landsman
Yeah, I think there's like a continuum, right? There's like, in terms of, and then it also depends, on your goals and things like that. I mean, for me, I think if you're like the founder of a software company, The economic value is very close to zero at the best case, and likely negative is the most likely scenario, just in dollars and cents.
00:47:57.91
Chris Morrell
yeah
00:47:58.10
Ian Landsman
I think it's negative for almost every software founder. There is, obviously, counter examples. um You're selling some kind of social media tool, whatever, like fine. Or if you're a content creator, if you're Aaron, Aaron is in a different spot where he's trying to sell courses and the people are on Twitter and you got to market to the people, right? So like, that's different.
00:48:20.32
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
00:48:22.34
Ian Landsman
But if you're a software founder, I feel like what the amount of business you get is literally zero, especially in B2B software. And then like, so every distraction is just like a negative on things you should probably be doing other than being distracted. No, that's not the whole picture. There is, of course, like what you're saying with like friendships and staying in touch with people and um meeting new people.
00:48:47.50
Ian Landsman
That's like, you know, I think it's hard to judge. I think there's definitely people I met, like I'm on here and I didn't know you before and I wouldn't know you without Twitter most likely. um But I don't know, I don't know.
00:48:57.26
Chris Morrell
you
00:48:58.75
Ian Landsman
Is that even true? Like in in the old, like I have a podcast with Aaron, you might've reached out to me and said, hey, beyond my podcast and I might've met you that way. So I mean, these things happened before Twitter existed, right? Like it wasn't impossible to do these things. It was different. um So I don't know, I'm not going all the way probably to zero social media under any circumstances, but I do feel like the amount of time spent on it is not good, that this especially in coding and really any work. like once you Once you go in there, like you can't help but be distracted. like You are now distracted. And then when you come back, you're just not as productive as you were before you went in there. like And then you got to get back in the groove and whatever.
00:49:41.71
Ian Landsman
And I do think it's gotten much worse. See, I'm not a big follower, unfollower and blocker and all that stuff, like a muter. Like to me, that's a lot of work. Now I'm putting in all this work and especially since it's algorithmically driven, I mean, there's infinite people. So like I'm blocking people and then it's just showing new people to me who do the same thing, right?
00:49:57.31
Chris Morrell
you
00:50:01.51
Ian Landsman
So it's like a limited value. I mean, yeah, I could block Elon cause he's a huge one and I could block a couple other big names that appear all the time. but There's only so much blocking and muting I can really do. I can stick only with the follower tab or following tab, but that kind of also hurts me because it's like I wanted, I want the algorithm to tell me what I missed. So I don't have to necessarily read a day of tweets when I come back, but. But then I go over there and there's a bunch of other stuff in there. It's not just like the the six or seven things that if I went through and handpicked are the things that I would want to see because obviously its goals, incentives are not aligned with that, right? Like they want, they don't want you to read six items and get out of there. They want you to spend half an hour reading, you know, random crypto stuff and whatever. and
00:50:53.16
Ian Landsman
literally the same, the same Sam Parr ad 4,000 times, like every three tweets, I got to see the same ad.
00:50:54.22
Chris Morrell
Don't say that word. The bots are going to come.
00:51:03.69
Ian Landsman
So, I don't know. I'm not, um this is not a finished project for me. Like I really just, I've been negative on Twitter for a while, but I've, I haven't taken action and I'm new to the action this last couple of weeks, but I do like it so far, I think, um devaluing it from my day to day.
00:51:23.02
Chris Morrell
So you said you tried, you tried Macedon and you just didn't like it. What was, what was that experience?
00:51:28.59
Ian Landsman
I mean, I tried it when when Elon bought Twitter and everybody kind of like was like, all right, let's go to Macedon. And it's just kind of a mess.
00:51:34.25
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
00:51:35.23
Ian Landsman
Like the way you connect people is kind of messy.
00:51:36.04
Chris Morrell
yeah
00:51:37.75
Ian Landsman
I don't know if any of it's better. Maybe it is. um I do like the idea. Obviously, like some of the things like ads and stuff like that, you're presumably not going to have that problem. I don't know if that works on different servers.
00:51:51.31
Ian Landsman
I don't know. I mean, it's a solution for tech Twitter maybe because they're technical enough for it. I don't think you're ever going to get normal people on there too much. And to me, that's like a huge part of the value of Twitter is not just like like, all the geeks are still here because the geeks are still here. And it's like, okay, we're all still here and we're trying to hang on. But I like Twitter for all the other stuff too. Like I liked that there was news people I followed and um other what travel related things or whatever. And like when those things were a little bit, not just totally garbage on Twitter, right? Like that was interesting.
00:52:27.08
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
00:52:27.45
Ian Landsman
But now it's like okay all everything else is garbage and tech tech Twitter is like not totally garbage yet and tech Twitter thinks that because they're not totally garbage yet that like the garbage isn't coming for them, but it is coming because everything else is wrecked if you go into any other part where you're like oh my god what's going on over here. so and So can they all move to, math like, can we move tech, Twitter to Macedon? Maybe, but it's just going to be tech Twitter over there. It's not going to be journalists, not going to be travel thing.
00:52:57.91
Ian Landsman
It's just going to be tech people, which is fine. But I also feel like there's so many other options for that.
00:53:01.46
Chris Morrell
I.
00:53:02.64
Ian Landsman
Now I'm in six telegram groups with tech people. I got slack. Some of this stuff is peeling off into other spaces too. So I don't know.
00:53:11.19
Chris Morrell
Yeah. I mean, I do think I do, I do wish, you know, I, I definitely find myself in telegram more often now, but I don't love that it's like totally private. You know, the, the, there's something that was really nice about, about
00:53:28.57
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
00:53:32.37
Chris Morrell
Twitter being like this public space that you could kind of like find interesting things that were happening.
00:53:35.07
Ian Landsman
For sure.
00:53:39.08
Chris Morrell
And and I like that Macedon has that capacity. I also think that the thing that I'm most interested in with Macedon is, you know, if we could get a critical mass of just Laravel folks onto one instance. All of a sudden you have like not only are there the people that you follow, but there's the sort of instance view where you can like switch over and just see what's everybody on the instance talking about.
00:54:09.81
Chris Morrell
And as long as you keep that like, you know, you don't just like
00:54:10.64
Ian Landsman
I guess.
00:54:14.75
Chris Morrell
open the floodgates to everybody. There's some sort of like process of bringing people into the instance.
00:54:19.44
Ian Landsman
So you're just rebuilding Telegram though, really, to some degree.
00:54:22.43
Chris Morrell
Well.
00:54:22.86
Ian Landsman
Like you could have a Laravel Telegram group that's like vetted Laravel-y people.
00:54:27.95
Chris Morrell
No, because it's still public, it can still you can still engage with the rest of the the like feta verse.
00:54:30.87
Ian Landsman
I think Telegram can be public.
00:54:39.28
Ian Landsman
But then I have to be only, I have to be like my whole identity is Laravel.
00:54:39.63
Chris Morrell
As much as you want.
00:54:44.59
Chris Morrell
No, not at all.
00:54:45.42
Ian Landsman
Because that's where my instance, that's what my home instance. Isn't that how that works?
00:54:49.78
Chris Morrell
Well, you could have a second account if you wanted to, but no, I mean, a lot of folks, a lot of folks join an instance that's like topical or regional or something like that.
00:54:50.00
Ian Landsman
I mean, I can have a second account for different instance instance instances.
00:55:00.50
Chris Morrell
And because of that, they're going to their, their, their posts are going to tend to veer in that direction, but they don't, there's nothing forcing you to.
00:55:09.40
Ian Landsman
No, I understand that, but I mean, it's kind of, I mean, at the end of the day, it's like, if I start tweeting about any, I start, whatever they call them, that's done about any other topic, right?
00:55:09.67
Chris Morrell
And like, you know,
00:55:19.76
Ian Landsman
And you're in the view of the server and you're like, I'm on the server for Laravel stuff. And there is Ian posted about politics or travel stuff or but how he went on a walk this morning. Like that's all now not Laravel specific.
00:55:36.77
Chris Morrell
Yeah, I'm not too worried about that.
00:55:38.03
Ian Landsman
You know what I'm saying?
00:55:39.64
Chris Morrell
I feel like because then I could just I could just mute you if I wanted to.
00:55:43.30
Ian Landsman
Yeah, but I just think, I just think it's not going to happen.
00:55:44.13
Chris Morrell
um
00:55:46.90
Chris Morrell
Yeah, I mean, it doesn't seem like it's going to happen.
00:55:47.07
Ian Landsman
yeah I just think it's not going to happen because I just don't think people, I just don't think anybody wants to be pigeonholed on that level. It's like really committing to like this one slice of my identity is what this is. Um, and that feels like anti Twitter to me. Um,
00:56:03.51
Chris Morrell
That, yeah, that's interesting that you see it that way. Cause I don't, just because I'm on like a instance that has a focus doesn't, I mean, I don't feel any obligation to, to stay like technical in my posts.
00:56:21.61
Ian Landsman
Yeah. I mean, I get that, but I just think is creating, I still think there's no way around it creating that sort of, if if that's the goal, right? It's like, we're building Laravel servers, so all the Laravel people are there with their main accounts. So we're all together. I just think that is putting a very, but you know, in this case, Laravel could be anything. Dynamic on it. Like, what if I'm not involved in Laravel in five years and now my home instance and my handle is this thing connected to this Laravel instance that I'm not a part of anymore.
00:56:45.36
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
00:56:51.93
Chris Morrell
Well, you can move, you can move and you can bring all your followers with you.
00:56:53.76
Ian Landsman
Can you move?
00:56:56.42
Chris Morrell
So you can you can shift, because we already, when when we first started the the current ah experiment,
00:56:56.70
Ian Landsman
Hmm.
00:57:05.02
Chris Morrell
um i I bought any dot.dev and we were gonna go all all big, ah but it was a premium domain.
00:57:12.62
Ian Landsman
Hmm.
00:57:14.75
Chris Morrell
And after a year of being like, okay, it doesn't seem like this is going to take off in the way that we were hoping. I was just like, I'm not going to pay premium domain prices for just like this little side experiment.
00:57:26.14
Ian Landsman
Got it.
00:57:28.85
Chris Morrell
um And so we just might we we migrated over to artisan dot.dev, rtsn dot.dev. And ah it was seamless. you know i you know i I think Matt is probably the biggest account there, and he moved some significant number of followers, and it was fine. you know I had like 100 people to move over. like
00:57:50.09
Ian Landsman
But I mean, even that, it's kind of crazy.
00:57:50.34
Chris Morrell
um
00:57:51.57
Ian Landsman
Like I'm like, this is my instance. I'm at Ian at any dot.dev, right? And like now my instance can just change its URL and like I'm, I'm now I'm somewhere else or I have to physically move or else I guess I can just get lost. Like, I'm not buying it.
00:58:06.30
Chris Morrell
I don't know. I like, I like that.
00:58:06.94
Ian Landsman
Like I'm not buying it.
00:58:08.04
Chris Morrell
It's, it, it gives you that flexibility to say, okay, I'm committing to this instance for now, but sure.
00:58:13.38
Ian Landsman
Yeah, but I'm just dependent on you, literally you, right? Like and nothing wrong with you, but like you get hit by a bus, anything can happen.
00:58:18.26
Chris Morrell
Yeah. No, you have to trust me for sure. Yep.
00:58:21.46
Ian Landsman
Now I'm on this dead instance.
00:58:21.83
Chris Morrell
Yep.
00:58:22.68
Ian Landsman
I put all this time and energy into, and now it's dead, right?
00:58:25.21
Chris Morrell
Yep.
00:58:25.88
Ian Landsman
And so I just, I don't see, I mean, listen, I think it's going to have its little niches or whatever. I'm not saying it's going to go away, but I just don't think it's going to replace Twitter. Like that's everything you've described is so complicated.
00:58:35.27
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
00:58:38.16
Ian Landsman
And so anti, like how a normal person uses the internet and would be willing to do when they can just go to Twitter, go to threads, go to Facebook, go to any Instagram and just sign up and use it and have it forever and know it's never going to change. It's always going to work. They don't have to think about it. And I like the normal people there. See everybody's like tech Twitter. Great. but I like that the normal people used to be in there. And now the normal people are gone, but like I used to like that there was normal people in the mix and there isn't any anymore for the most part.
00:59:06.97
Chris Morrell
I will say there are a lot of, there are a lot, there are a lot of people on, like, I, I find that, you know, I don't follow a huge tech contingent on Mastodon because most, most of the people who I care about just aren't there, but.
00:59:07.18
Ian Landsman
There's just tech Twitter and like some scammery type people. Like that's where we're at. That's what's left.
00:59:27.99
Chris Morrell
There's a lot, there is a lot of activity and ah you can find those like, nichey things in a way that you in the same way that you used to, you know, you can find travel people or you can news people or whatever.
00:59:41.45
Ian Landsman
like I got to use net or whatever. Yeah.
00:59:45.13
Chris Morrell
um And like a lot of news outlets now run their own instances. So you can like confirm that this is actually like that reporter, because it's at, you know, msnbc dot.com or whatever, you know, like, um
00:59:54.50
Ian Landsman
yeah
00:59:58.83
Ian Landsman
oh Yeah.
01:00:00.67
Chris Morrell
So I do think that that's there. I think you're right. Like it's always going to be a nerdy thing, but I guess my, my feeling is just like right now tech Twitter is the only good Twitter. And I do think that it's, it's gotten worse over the last, even over the last like two weeks, it feels like Twitter has been getting bad.
01:00:19.79
Ian Landsman
Like literally, yeah, he gets worse every week. it does It's worse every week.
01:00:23.05
Chris Morrell
Um. And so my my mentality is just like, even if it's only to preserve a semblance of what we already have, I'd rather do that than nothing. And then and then we have like a little safe safe haven of sorts.
01:00:36.21
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
01:00:41.34
Chris Morrell
um
01:00:41.45
Ian Landsman
Maybe it was all, maybe it's like, maybe it's just more of the signal though. How I'm taking it is it's just a signal to be on there less, right? Like it's less. It's a knock. You're not being, it's not making you more productive. You don't need that many more new friends. And what you're getting out of it, isn't maybe as much as you might think. If you really sit down and list it out, like that, you know, as it's oh it's all a continuum again. Like if you're a little more well-known. I think it gets less and less interesting. I think then all the way at the other end, it's like, I don't really know anybody in this community. Then yes, like that's, there's a lot of value potentially if you can start to connect with people.
01:01:22.60
Ian Landsman
um
01:01:24.92
Chris Morrell
Yeah, I get that.
01:01:25.42
Ian Landsman
I don't know, but I mean, it's like, look at like, how often does Taylor tweet?
01:01:26.62
Chris Morrell
No, I get it.
01:01:28.44
Ian Landsman
How often does Adam Watson tweet? How often, you know, all, all of the big names in our community, if you go back and compare how much they tweet now burst like two years ago, it's not even close, like literally a 10th.
01:01:38.16
Chris Morrell
Oh, yeah, for sure.
01:01:39.68
Ian Landsman
Right. Um, so. I just think that's like kind of what's happening. Like they felt it maybe earlier. I'm just like, um I don't know how they feel about it. I'm speaking just my own, just by what's going on, just by the data I have of like, are they on there getting in the streets or not? They are not right. So, um, why is that right?
01:01:57.72
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
01:02:01.64
Ian Landsman
I don't know. I think there's something to do with how it's gone, how much fun it is to be on there, how useful it is to them and their interactions and their businesses, uh, Yeah, and I think that just is trickling down to like the little or fish like myself as we ah get in there. It's like, ah I don't know. I'm not getting any economic value. The interpersonal value is like diminishing because it's mixed in with all these like bots and human bots that I just called them on Twitter. Cause like they're just, Elon turned the humans into bots where everybody's just tweeting one liners and whatever. And so, yeah, I don't know.
01:02:42.49
Chris Morrell
Yeah, no, I.
01:02:42.82
Ian Landsman
Mental health-wise, I don't think it's upside. I can't imagine it's a positive. I just really can't. like I think it's just unlikely overall.
01:02:49.80
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
01:02:51.30
Ian Landsman
like If you really add it up, like yes, I met these cool people and there's a couple cool people, but then the day in, day out grind of seeing bad stuff or seeing stuff, I mean, just like kids have. Everybody talks about it in terms of kids, but like even for adults, like I get sad sometimes when I'm on there. It's like, oh, person who started a software company at the same time I did, is taking a year sabbatical and has a yacht, right? Like, Oh man, I like really screwed that up. and Even though I've done well and whatever. Like if you asked me when I started, if I was like, this is the end, how do you feel about that? I've been like, yes, sign me up. Awesome. But, um, you know, then you see somebody who's done it better, right? In in a sense. So I don't know. I don't know if that's motivating. I think it gets like,
01:03:39.00
Chris Morrell
Oh no, I don't, I don't think so.
01:03:39.86
Ian Landsman
You know, all that stuff. I think it's demotivating for most people.
01:03:42.55
Chris Morrell
Yeah. Oh, I agree for sure.
01:03:45.36
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
01:03:45.70
Chris Morrell
Yeah. And yeah, I don't disagree with most of it. I i think i I do think that for me, um, like, you know, we had our first PHP Philly meetup last month and, uh, a couple of those people wouldn't have been there had it not been for Twitter.
01:04:01.02
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
01:04:07.04
Chris Morrell
And I think. I am really glad to have met a few other Laravel PHP developers in the city. um I probably wouldn't have gone to the PHP New York meetup had it not been for Twitter. And like there are a couple of people that I've like really connected with ah because of that.
01:04:26.55
Ian Landsman
Do you think that's true? See, I'm, I'm really not buying those takes because here's the thing, meetup dot.com was way before Twitter and I understand, but like, and but sure but like,
01:04:30.11
Chris Morrell
How would I have found about it?
01:04:36.91
Chris Morrell
But none of that stuff is on meetup. It's, it's, it's a hellhole.
01:04:43.94
Ian Landsman
I just think that that I went to plenty of conferences and plenty of meetups. I went to way more meetups either before Twitter or you know kind of essentially before Twitter, um very early days than I do now.
01:04:52.67
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
01:04:56.17
Ian Landsman
and like There's obviously life reasons for that as a two, but I just think we found out about things. like People had blogs or they had forums they were part of. There were still other means people found out about things. so I think Twitter is hard to replace harder for me, I think, to replace in terms of like real time information.
01:05:14.58
Chris Morrell
Yeah, for sure.
01:05:14.71
Ian Landsman
like there's Nothing has replaced Twitter in terms of just raw, there's something going on in the world, um or even in tech, but and to be able to be hooked into it real time is still cool and magical, and nothing is better than Twitter for that. um But I think these other sort of things,
01:05:31.58
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
01:05:34.91
Ian Landsman
Like maybe right now it would be hard to do the Philly PHP meetup because Twitter is still kind of like the core, but I don't think that has to be true um to make a Philly PHP meetup happen. I think it could happen other ways, um potentially. I think it did used to happen.
01:05:53.39
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
01:05:54.43
Ian Landsman
And I feel like there was more meetups.
01:05:54.48
Chris Morrell
ah No, I agree.
01:05:55.75
Ian Landsman
There was more meetups before. Like there was tons of PHP meetups and stuff, and that a lot of stuff kind of died off.
01:05:57.23
Chris Morrell
Oh, for sure.
01:06:01.06
Ian Landsman
I think it was PHP kind of, you know, went down a little bit and then like the resurgence of live all this kind of, uh, starting to pull it up, you know, build up some of that interest in the community, I think, but yeah.
01:06:12.08
Chris Morrell
I think the meetup culture in general disappeared for a while, and I'm i'm hoping that we're seeing a resurgence. I don't know, but um it feels like we may be. um But yeah, i think i think that you're not I think that you're right that there used to be great ways to find local events. Um, and if those still existed, I would agree with you entirely. It's just like that stuff doesn't exist now.
01:06:35.53
Ian Landsman
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I don't write on my blog, right?
01:06:37.55
Chris Morrell
There aren't forums there.
01:06:38.52
Ian Landsman
Like nobody does.
01:06:39.11
Chris Morrell
aren I I'm like one of the very few, you know, I, I, when I, when I text you that thing about a brand, it was from my RSS feed reader. Like I try really hard to find like um RSS feeds to subscribe to because I want that to still exist.
01:06:48.96
Ian Landsman
Oh, wow.
01:06:52.90
Ian Landsman
Yeah. Yeah. To be a thing.
01:06:56.76
Chris Morrell
And I, and there are some great blogs that publish. Um.
01:07:01.08
Ian Landsman
How is that not, I feel like there is this middle ground between Twitter and blogs that nobody's been able to nail down that feels very logical to me, um that somebody's gonna figure that out and that's gonna be like the perfect middle ground of like, you're required in some way to be maybe a little more thoughtful or at least have the expectation. It's not just like every just continuous firing from the hip random one-liners, right? But like, um so it's not, so just the quantities less in a sense, ah there's just like, it's more thoughtful what's put out, but it's not the full commitment of like write a post um and all of that, which people feel like they don't have time for now and or are just trained to expect
01:07:37.66
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
01:07:44.29
Ian Landsman
You know, something that happens quicker um and is easier.
01:07:46.85
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
01:07:48.10
Ian Landsman
So I don't know.
01:07:49.86
Chris Morrell
I think that that's what mastodon was supposed to be. I mean, it probably, it may not.
01:07:54.02
Ian Landsman
Really? I think it was more just like a Twitter clone. No.
01:07:57.63
Chris Morrell
Well, mass i mean or maybe not Macedon, but ActivityPub, the protocol that Macedon operates on top of.
01:08:01.96
Ian Landsman
Hmm. It's not like the protocol. Hmm.
01:08:06.11
Chris Morrell
I mean, it's fascinating, ah the the whole technology behind this stuff. and i And I do think that there are opportunities to um tap into that like ecosystem with tools that aren't Macedon, but you would still, you know Yeah, already that's happening like WordPress, you can have people comment on your posts via the Fetaverse and your posts can be posts on the Fetaverse and like, um, what is the, uh, tumblr now is federated.
01:08:33.32
Ian Landsman
Right.
01:08:35.66
Ian Landsman
Hmm.
01:08:40.59
Chris Morrell
So like, if you use tumblr, you can, you know, your, your posts are available in mast on or any other one of these.
01:08:41.32
Ian Landsman
Hmm.
01:08:47.68
Ian Landsman
Tumbler itself was kind of similar to what I'm talking about.
01:08:50.71
Chris Morrell
Mm-hmm.
01:08:50.81
Ian Landsman
I feel like it was like kind of more along those lines.
01:08:51.69
Chris Morrell
Yeah, it was.
01:08:55.02
Chris Morrell
Yeah, it just kind of fell apart for a while there.
01:08:55.74
Ian Landsman
no Yeah. Yeah.
01:08:58.14
Chris Morrell
And now they're trying to come back, but who knows if they can.
01:08:59.72
Ian Landsman
Right. They got the domain anyway.
01:09:02.69
Chris Morrell
ah Yeah, but, um, yeah, no, I agree. I mean, that's, I think that's my biggest. That's my biggest takeaway on the social media thing is like, I agree that Twitter is not good anymore. Good for people for the most part, but there's not an obvious place.
01:09:22.19
Ian Landsman
No good replacement. Yeah.
01:09:24.79
Chris Morrell
that people can agree on. like i i you know I think the Mastodon's great.
01:09:27.89
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
01:09:28.48
Chris Morrell
i would ah Everyone out there, join Artisan dot.dev. it's it's a you know We've got some some folks over here, but it's kind of a chicken and the egg.
01:09:31.67
Ian Landsman
yeah I'll check it out.
01:09:37.53
Chris Morrell
Most of us don't post over there because most of us don't post over there.
01:09:38.31
Ian Landsman
yeah
01:09:41.14
Ian Landsman
yeah
01:09:41.46
Chris Morrell
um But, uh, if we can get enough folks over, maybe that would change. Um, I am not a huge fan of threads. i I don't want to jump from like one evil, uh, social media company to another evil social media company.
01:09:53.87
Ian Landsman
ah
01:09:56.98
Chris Morrell
Um, so, and blue sky kind of meh, this doesn't excite me that, you know, um, I
01:10:01.27
Ian Landsman
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I'll blue sky. I like threads the best of the alternatives, but I agree. Like, I mean, it doesn't feel like... i I think Facebook would be a much better caretaker of the whole thing overall, but not without, of course, serious downsides compared to like ah open blogging or things like that, yeah.
01:10:19.99
Chris Morrell
Yeah. Well, the upside of threads is it's federated. I can, if you're on threads, I can follow you on Mastodon. Um, yeah, I don't know.
01:10:26.09
Ian Landsman
No, did they actually do all that stuff? Okay, so...
01:10:29.57
Chris Morrell
I know that some accounts have access to it.
01:10:31.49
Ian Landsman
Mm.
01:10:32.27
Chris Morrell
I don't know if it's general access yet. I'll have to check, but, um, you know, they're, they're theoretically, uh, you know, using the same activity problems protocol as Mastodon does.
01:10:38.67
Ian Landsman
Playing in the sandbox there. Hmm.
01:10:43.63
Chris Morrell
And as, as tumbler and WordPress, like all of them are theoretically cross compatible.
01:10:47.78
Ian Landsman
Oh, maybe it's getting there. It's getting there.
01:10:50.10
Chris Morrell
Yeah. It's just, it's just basically Jason email. Like when you get to the, to the underlying technology, you basically have an inbox and an outbox and it's just Jason, you know, like that's all it is.
01:10:55.64
Ian Landsman
Right. I like the sound of that. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah.
01:11:03.53
Chris Morrell
Um, with some like web hooks for real time notification, like it's actually not.
01:11:06.38
Ian Landsman
Hmm.
01:11:10.70
Chris Morrell
complicated at all.
01:11:12.28
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
01:11:12.48
Chris Morrell
um And I think that there are some interesting i think there's some interesting business opportunities there actually, but I don't know.
01:11:17.92
Ian Landsman
Hmm.
01:11:20.75
Chris Morrell
Anyway, I know that ah you need to head out soon. is there is Is there any chance you're going to take a sabbatical someday?
01:11:23.84
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
01:11:29.88
Ian Landsman
Nine times soon.
01:11:29.90
Chris Morrell
What do you think?
01:11:30.96
Ian Landsman
i got We got a bunch of stuff we're doing, but it's on my list of things to possibly accomplish at some point, or if not, The thing I would like to start with, like, I always say I'm going to like make the summer relaxing. Like I'm going to organize everything so that like the summers can be at least like more chill.
01:11:44.39
Chris Morrell
Mm hmm.
01:11:48.29
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
01:11:48.40
Ian Landsman
I've never honestly, like it always works out where the summer is the least chill of the whole year. And like that I have all these big projects and things that we're doing over the summer. So. We'll see, I don't know. I don't have any near-term plans to take a proper sabbatical, but but yeah, I am trying to focus more on taking different, like one of the things we decided to do is um not take any, we usually do take them take some big vacations. And we're not doing that this year. And definitely part of it is because of what you were saying, like, it's like the work of the vacation is a lot.
01:12:23.63
Ian Landsman
And so it's like, we're just going to be like home and chill in.
01:12:24.19
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
01:12:26.71
Ian Landsman
Maybe over the winter, we might go somewhere where there's some sun for like an easy beach vacation without like a bunch of historical stops and planning and whatever.
01:12:30.44
Chris Morrell
Yeah.
01:12:34.68
Ian Landsman
Just like sit on, fly there, sit on the beach, come back.
01:12:35.14
Chris Morrell
Right.
01:12:38.55
Ian Landsman
Um, but yeah, I keep it pretty low key for a year or so, I think. So that's kind of the near term stuff for me.
01:12:44.95
Chris Morrell
Yeah. I don't know. We'll see. I, I I'm like actively trying to figure out how I could make it happen. Like I, you know, I've got, and, and, you know, the, I, I have the advantage of, you know, I've got 30 people working in internet cheese. So, uh, there's a lot more opportunity to delegate.
01:13:02.54
Ian Landsman
yeah
01:13:06.53
Chris Morrell
Um, and for the most part, I feel like all the teams, you know, are just firing on all cylinders. There's not a whole lot I have to deal with. um I could probably walk away from most things.
01:13:17.96
Ian Landsman
No.
01:13:21.76
Chris Morrell
The only thing that, ironically, I feel like I would have trouble walking away from right now is the development side, because like i um so I'm so like...
01:13:24.00
Ian Landsman
Mm.
01:13:31.97
Chris Morrell
ah ki Yeah, I'm just like...
01:13:33.10
Ian Landsman
We're still in the mix there.
01:13:36.67
Chris Morrell
it's It's like my baby, right? i've been i I worked on this thing by myself for probably a decade.
01:13:38.38
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
01:13:41.39
Ian Landsman
Right.
01:13:41.72
Chris Morrell
And then then I brought on one developer and he worked on it for the second decade. And we're just now at a place over the last few years where there's other folks ah working here on the product.
01:13:52.89
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
01:13:53.14
Chris Morrell
So it's just like hard to let that go. You know what I mean?
01:13:55.19
Ian Landsman
Yeah. I just shut down development for a year.
01:13:56.51
Chris Morrell
um
01:13:58.19
Ian Landsman
It's like you've you've been running 20 years, just like we're not basically doing anything.
01:13:58.54
Chris Morrell
yeah Yeah.
01:14:02.13
Ian Landsman
Like you can bug fixes, basic bug fixes, no infrastructure stuff, no nothing.
01:14:03.01
Chris Morrell
yeah
01:14:09.66
Ian Landsman
Give them some big projects to like be building for the following. That's not going to shift to the following year. It's like, all right, we're going to take on big thing X. Try it out.
01:14:18.56
Chris Morrell
That's interesting.
01:14:19.68
Ian Landsman
Um, so you don't have to like fire developers or whatever, but like, yeah.
01:14:23.80
Chris Morrell
I don't know. the the we've got We've got two developers working here other than myself and both of them are fantastic and like i I think I've been able to let go of a lot of things because they like I really do trust them.
01:14:38.73
Ian Landsman
yeah
01:14:39.09
Chris Morrell
And ah we brought on ah Daniel's ah partner, John, to do some product work with us. um And he's been able to, ah like we're experimenting with him sort of taking over the just like not as much product, but more like project management of just like leading our retrospectives and our planning sessions.
01:15:00.55
Ian Landsman
Yeah. Yeah. So that would do it.
01:15:02.78
Chris Morrell
And so like, it feels like I could sort of set a six month roadmap and let them, let them run with it.
01:15:07.37
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
01:15:10.88
Chris Morrell
And, uh, you know, I think that's, that's maybe on the horizon. We'll see.
01:15:14.75
Ian Landsman
Oh, I'm excited to hear about this. If you pull it off, that would be cool.
01:15:18.56
Chris Morrell
Yeah, I just don't know. like i'll ah I'll play video games for two weeks, and then i then i'll I'll have to figure something out, I guess.
01:15:25.76
Ian Landsman
Yeah, but I do miss being bored. I have to say that's something I've been experimenting more with also, but it's hard because there's just not a lot of time to be bored. But so yeah, if you were, if you pull that off, that would be something.
01:15:38.05
Chris Morrell
yeah Yeah, I mean, read read some more books.
01:15:41.45
Ian Landsman
Yeah.
01:15:42.50
Chris Morrell
go for Go for a run every once in a while.
01:15:45.57
Ian Landsman
Yep.
01:15:46.37
Chris Morrell
Yeah, we'll see.
01:15:48.75
Ian Landsman
Sorry, man.
01:15:48.99
Chris Morrell
All right.
01:15:49.41
Ian Landsman
Well, thanks for having me on.
01:15:51.26
Chris Morrell
Thank you. This has been, this has been fun. Uh, until next time, until our, uh, part three, the AI.
01:15:59.78
Ian Landsman
Yeah, we can do AI.
01:16:02.56
Chris Morrell
All right.
01:16:03.27
Ian Landsman
All right.
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